Jasper: Welcome back to another episode of Lutz and Jasper where we talk about AI latest trends. And today, we would love to focus a bit more on the creative part that AI is creating right now.

Lutz: But what the heck has happened last week and the week before?

Jasper: Let’s start with the most important question, how’s your coffee?

Lutz: It’s good. I’m recording today from Stockholm and Stockholm has actually a good barista as well as a good local roaster which is amazing. So I had already a coffee tasting this morning, five different coffees, I’m ready to roll.

Jasper: Very good. I had the amazing cherry office coffee, I think 10 cups because I didn’t sleep that much tonight. So we are ready to roll, ready to rumble. And as you said, a lot of things happened this week. I think Google was pretty happy.

CLIP: AI. AI. AI. AI. Generative AI. It uses AI to bring AI. AI. Generative AI. Generative AI. AI. AI. AI. AI. AI. AI. AI.

Jasper: Lutz, how did you like the Google presentation?

Lutz: Super interesting. I mean Google has been always the company who has driven AI upfront, right? They were the ones first to bring in the transformers and it’s an irony that somebody else makes now the big splash out of it, OpenAI and so on.

Jasper: So they really want to show the world they are here.

Lutz: Yes. And there is this leaked paper as well.

Jasper: Yeah.

Lutz: Yeah.

Jasper: Yeah, we spoke about it, right?

Lutz: Yeah. So what is important to see now is that Google launched PaLM 2. And PaLM 2 essentially is very similar from the token lengths comparable to ChatGPT. Same context, we talked about token lengths and how important it is. Google launched something like co-pilot. I know a lot of my Google friends use ChatGPT to actually improve their code, right? So yeah, here we go. Now they have their own co-pilot internally. They used it internally and now they’re launching it. So that’s cool.

Jasper: Do you think they took some time because they actually know how difficult… I mean you worked at Google, we should maybe be transparent here, but obviously you can’t disclose anything that is secret. But do you think they took their time because they wanted to launch something properly so they can counter OpenAI? Or did it just take more time for them?

Lutz: Oh, wow. Yes. So I don’t work at Google anymore so I can say this, I actually believe that Google has an amazing bottom up culture. However, they have not really done a very good job of launching a lot of new things. They’re making a lot of money out of search, right? And now they have AI and where does AI fit and can we build and something new and can we launch it in health or can we launch it somewhere else? I think they didn’t do a good job there in the past. And OpenAI and other companies are a little bit stealing here the thunder.

Jasper: Yeah.

Lutz: And there was a certain WTF what has just happened moment at Google and their last presentation and said, “We did it in Paris,” where the guy even didn’t have his phone with him. And I mean the presentation didn’t work. I mean it was chaos, it showed Google being scared. If you look at now I/O and they do this so sweet, they showed okay, you had how to complete and now people write emails, they bring home the point of, “Hey, we Google have been always at this place. We are ready to roll. We are ready to take this on.” That was a way more calm approach. So I still think Google and innovation is hard because it’s a big company. But I do think there are, and we talked about it that the model is probably not the most important thing. And we talked about it that innovation is very much happening on existing products. Google is extremely well positioned. And you see-

Jasper: And you’re right, they’re back on stage, but they are still a large and maybe a bit slower company because I think just this week, Anthropic launched their Claude model with a hundred thousand tokens, so much, much more they can ingest. It takes a bit of time, I read 22 seconds to actually get something out of the model, but they came from 9,000 tokens to a hundred thousand. So that’s pretty impressive. So they are back on stage from Google’s side, but then there are still these fast moving companies.

Lutz: Which by the way, I mean one thing which comes from Google I/O is you saw that they launched their model PaLM 2 based on the data which goes up to I think this January or this February, right?

Jasper: Yeah.

Lutz: So that means their training cycle is actually very much reduced.

Jasper: Yeah.

Lutz: Which comes down to the whole point, and we talked about this before, that open source still wins. How do you simplify your interface? Is the chat ability, I think you have those two questions, let me answer them separately, how do you simplify [inaudible]? If you’re having a startup, how do you simplify [inaudible]? This is what we see everybody slamming [inaudible].

Jasper: Mm-hmm.

Lutz: And sometimes the interface might become easier because now suddenly you can write. And then what we asked actually, let’s do the introduction, what did we say at that time?

Jasper: Yeah, we were basically debating why a closed or an open model, so open source model to the public, would win. And our conclusion is-

Lutz: That the open source is clearly winning. But if you look now back March, we had 11 large language model heading the market. In April, is it six, seven? I lost count there, right? We are seeing more and more coming to market and Google’s I/O showed, “Hey, we can train even faster because we keep it more up to date.” Claude is coming and saying, “ We do more context and have longer token lengths.” So the raise is very, very clear open. So the context of Google I/O is I think in two ways, is A, open source wins, that’s the same thing, this leaked document from Google.

Jasper: At the end essentially, and nobody knows 100% if it was leaked deliberately or not, but it says they went through everything that is important to have a defensible mode. So mode like USP and something that can last and create an unfair advantage. And they came to the conclusion that the open source community, the creativity, the way you work with AI needs transparency, needs also the community and fast development. And they can’t defend against that with anything that is closed. I think that’s one part.

Lutz: Which is by the way an interesting setup because if you look now on all the regulators around the world who are very keen to understand what AI is doing, and I will be very cautious commenting on this, but if you would’ve regulated cars before we have millions of cars on the roads, you might have stopped the car industry in the tracks-

Jasper: Because they can’t kill people, that’s for sure.

Lutz: Yes.

Jasper: Exactly. Yeah.

Lutz: So it will be interesting. However-

Jasper: Yeah. And I think-

Lutz: Google is actually well positioned there, right? Because they are not launching in Europe and in Canada initially, but they said we will work with a regulator to launch, okay?

Jasper: Yeah. And I think also another interesting development this week was that OpenAI apparently set by the information and news outlet is also open sourcing their language model to the public. So they’re also responding like Google to this whole trend of open models.

Lutz: Now, for VC, and then we should probably dig into our topic of today, but for VC, the interesting development will be how do we see control, transparency, reporting happening? The problem here is that the regulation is not yet clear. So it’s a question will this come out of MLOps that you cannot see this transparency? And by the way, we had this in the islands industries. I always run this as a case at Cornell with my students that I actually look at using a model to predict whether you underwrite a loan.

Jasper: Mm-hmm.

Regulation, however, says it has to be understandable why I underwrite the loan. So now we use a model and then there are companies who help to explain the model so that somebody can underwrite it.

Lutz: Regulation, however, says it has to be understandable why I underwrite the loan. So now we use a model and then there are companies who help to explain the model so that somebody can underwrite it.

Jasper: Yeah.

Lutz: We will see something very similar here.

Jasper: Yeah. And we have the same in the insurance industry as also probably in the U.S., but definitely in Germany. So you have to explain all your models, yeah, that’s true.

Lutz: And that means in terms of dear founders, there is an opportunity where definitely a platform will come into play. How that looks like depends a little bit on how the regulation looks like and that is still in the making. However, I’m super interested to see how this is building up.

Jasper: Yeah, agree. So wanted to come to a topic that is maybe a bit older, but it’s still happening a lot. And we actually like it because it’s, again, back to the fact why AI is taking off so fast because everyone out there…

Jasper: That’s why AI is taking off so fast, because everyone out there listening can have fun with it. There was this song from ghostwriter, it’s a very weird video, but I don’t use TikTok, sorry to say, Heart on My Sleeve, and it was sung by Drake and The Weeknd. I’m not a fan there, but it wasn’t created by them. That was actually the first one that went viral, millions of visitors, listeners. Then it came out that an AI created this song. But, how is that possible?

Lutz: Yes. How is that that possible?

Technically means, if I have a neural network, which encodes music, so it codes an image, it takes an image and says, in this image there’s a dog. That’s an encoder.

Jasper: I hate Auto-tune, but I’m old.

Lutz: How is it possible? We can talk technically. Technically means, if I have a neural network, which encodes music, so it codes an image, it takes an image and says, in this image there’s a dog. That’s an encoder. And then you decode in saying, show me a dog. It uses all the weights in the neural network to create a dog.

Jasper: And arrange the pixels essentially, right?

Lutz: Yes.

Jasper: Say, that’s a blue one. That’s a brown one.

Lutz: Yes.

Jasper: Yeah.

Lutz: That dog doesn’t exist. It is how the neural network imagines the dog. Meaning the same thing if I ask you, “Picture a dog,” you have a dog in your mind, but that dog doesn’t exist. It is created in your mind. Music, instead of pixels, which are all happening at the same time, has waves and tunes, and they are in a flow, which is more difficult to create. And that’s the reason why we don’t see yet, big time thing, yet, so many videos. In the new generation, we have Runaway and other companies who are trying to do videos, but music is definitely a tool out there.

Jasper: At the end of the day, if I understand correctly, you would just change the wavelength and the loudness, level of loudness, et cetera. But it’s still more complex than just saying the pixel on the top left, the pixel on the bottom, right?

Lutz: Totally.

Jasper: Yeah.

Lutz: So that is the same way how I can create text with tokens, with context. Life is like a box of… And then we know that it’s chocolate. Yeah, I can do music and can sing, what is the next expected tone to happen? So I can create music in the same setup. And obviously I can write now, text in the same setup, and I can create an artificial voice to read that text, and I can create the music. So theoretically I have all the pieces together to create music.

Jasper: And it feels a bit like what you’re describing is when I use Midjourney, is imagine, same as the dog, imagine a dog, imagine Drake and The Weeknd singing. That would create new things. But this one feels a bit more like the merge comment in Midjourney, where I basically merge different voices and attach them to a new text and maybe a new tune. Is that different, or at the end of the day the same? If I create new music out of something or if I just merge different music styles?

Lutz: That’s an excellent question because I actually believe this is where much of the debate goes wrong. In the public, we’re kind of saying, “Oh, we have AI, and AI is now doing everything.” This is not right. I don’t know. How do you use, for example, ChatGPT or Birth? Well, you can’t use Birth, because you’re in Europe, but how do you use ChatGPT?

Jasper: I’m currently using it, honestly, just because I find it’s interesting to summarize text and to see if the summarize of the summary is right. I’m not using it to write text because I don’t like the writing style.

ChatGPT for many folks is a intellectual sparing partner. It’s a cross-entropy.

Lutz: You could prompt the writing style probably in a way that you like it, but if you ask the computer to write something for you, it will write very generic.

Jasper: Yeah. But that’s what I mean. Yeah.

Lutz: ChatGPT for many folks is a intellectual sparing partner. It’s a cross-entropy. It’s kind of like, I say something, let me see how they’re reformulating what I said. Or, I have an idea, how can they compliment it? Party Poop Alert says now, this Drake song, it wasn’t AI. And now people is like, wait, what? And all haters come talk to me.

Jasper: Yeah.

Lutz: It was Drake, having a Drake style. And by the way, Drake very publicly talked about his own production capability. He’s not writing his own songs, he has a team. So now somebody used, instead of it like, Drake goes to his team, he briefs his team, he has a certain style, and his team creates content, and then he plays it in. And Drake, look at how many songs he produces. It’s not my music, but it’s more the production chain of music, right?

Jasper: A hundred percent. You’ve seen the video with Dr. Dre and Jimmy Iovine, Dr. Dre produced Eminem, Eminem didn’t produce the music himself.

Lutz: Yes. So now we have AI helping in the same level Drake would utilize his team to help him. And the person who created the song…

Jasper: Ghostwriter.

Lutz: Ghostwriter, I think the brilliance here is, there wasn’t an AI where somebody typed in, I want to have a song from Drake and The Weeknd, and it’s going to be awesome. And the music came out. No, I think there was a lot of human decision-making, in terms of, how do I get the text, how do I put it together? But the beauty is, one person was able to do it. With an intellectual sparing partner, or, it’s kind of a cross-entropy. You kind of get stuff together, you build it up, you mix it up, and you create something new out of it.

Jasper: And I think that’s the interesting part where you’re probably relating to that. This is not really AI, because somebody created the tune probably manually. Somebody created the text, maybe with a little bit of ChatGPT, but then you would also tweak it so it rhymes well and works well with the music flow. And then you might even sing it yourself, but you just change the voice that you have. Not really with AI, but let’s say some of it, so it sounds similar to Drake and The Weeknd.

Whereas, and I tried it myself, because we also use it for this podcast. The intro music is created by AI. But I tried myself, those AI tools that would create music. I still have to select the different instruments, I still have to select the speed, the tunes, or whatever you call it in English. So, how it sounds. And then it would create random output, a bit like imagine from Midjourney, but it might still not sound great. So I would change it. And I tried some different tools, and dear listeners, if you have something better, please let us know. But so far it’s a lot of experimentation still, where the human has to give feedback. This sounds good. This doesn’t sound good. I want a different instrument.

Lutz: So just to be clear, yes, ghostwriter used AI. It probably used AI for the text and it probably used AI for the music. But it combined those. And the style, it combined those. And the training it decided to use, and the focus it set, and that it said, I want something and The Weeknd in this. That is all human decision making.

Jasper: Yeah. Makes sense.

Lutz: And this is so important for us to understand once we are going into this generative AI setup, it is not that suddenly everything will be taken over. It is the combination of a human with the AI, which will be the new norm.

And the great thing is, it’s not even proprietary…So everyone can use it like Midjourney. They have to pay for some of those, but everybody can be more creative.

Jasper: And the great thing is, it’s not even proprietary. So when we looked at our research for audio music, Microsoft has Wally, OpenAI has Jukebox, then we have Oxygen from Meta, MusicLM from Google, Stability has Dance, and so forth. DeepComposer from Amazon. So everyone can use it like Midjourney. They have to pay for some of those, but everybody can be more creative. So I think the question is more now, what actually happens with the industry, with the help of these extra tools, versus, will this be replaced? Will this whole industry be replaced?

Lutz: Well, I’m never a big fan of replacement.

Jasper: Yeah. Agreed.

Lutz: And I think by using those tools, production cost goes down. The ability. You don’t need a big team anymore, you don’t need a big producer anymore. It becomes easier. And we can look at two examples probably in the industry to see what’s going to happen. One is in media text journalism. It used to be that it was a profession, journalism. It was hard to create text. It was hard to bring it together. Once you had the article, then it was hard to actually create the printed thing. You needed the printing press.

Jasper: Yeah. Design it, put it together, plot it so it’s on one page. Yes.

Lutz: And then it was hard to actually distribute it. You need to have access to all the shops.

Jasper: Yeah.

Lutz: Now, there was a great unbundling. So first of all, everybody started to be able to operate their own computer, and now writing was easy. Then the internet came, and now we could actually distribute it easy. And then everybody got a mobile phone, and the mobile revolution came, and now everybody could be their own journalist. And you saw a new business model spinning up there in the whole area.

Lutz: And you saw a new business model spinning up there in the whole area and coming together. So that is what-

Jasper: And sorry, you forgot one part. The research was even also happening before the internet because, before the journalist, they would use the network, they would have to go to cafes, et cetera. And suddenly now I get all the information as well. Nothing is proprietary anymore.

Lutz: And that has changed hugely the way how we consume media, how we consume text. It went from we buy the newspaper in the morning to we read the feed in Facebook from our friends, to the Kardashians recommending me as an influencer what I should read, to TikTok is AI-driven literally. There has been a huge shift.

Jasper: Yeah.

Lutz: So now let’s look at the music industry. Well, it used to be hard to create music and you needed a team, a studio, an orchestra, background singer, and so on and so forth. And now you can actually say, “Well, let’s play it like Drake and I just want a violin solo here in it.” So you can make it way easier. The future will be indie.

But the experimentation is much faster. And the inspiration, the input and the output both is much wider, much more creative, which leads to your point of more indie music.

Jasper: And to my point, you just go there to the store and had to buy it. Or even before you had to go to cafes listening to jazz music. Now you can listen on Spotify, on the internet, but then you can even remix it. You can change the style. To your point, I can play with it because before I would listen to a song, and then I would get inspired. But now I can listen to so much music, I can mix it up and I can change it in a way that I like maybe more modern style auto-tune, this bad auto-tune that I don’t like. But the experimentation is much faster. And the inspiration, the input and the output both is much wider, much more creative, which leads to your point of more indie music.

Lutz: Yes, the future is going to be indie. Now, the funny thing is when you talk about this mixing, we have seen that story before, right?

Jasper: Yes. Yeah.

Lutz: People started sampling music.

Jasper: Yep.

Lutz: And the industry’s reaction to this was, “Oh my God, don’t sample our music, don’t do it.” And then people were starting fighting and saying, “No, this has to be protected. And how do we pay our DR artists?” Over time, obviously DJs sampled music. Suddenly this became a new style. People loved it. And sampling music became a thing.

Jasper: And if you-

Lutz: And we’re seeing the same thing here.

Jasper: And a good example, just watch Hip-Hop Evolution. The whole rap music in the eighties, nineties, probably even before was with jazz samples. That’s why I love this type of music. But that was free. That was the main reason. They got it for free. They could produce music so they would earn some money. And that created rap at the end of the day and hip hop.

Lutz: But the interesting part is, overall AI is not replacing it. It just lowers the barrier. It creates another person next for you. And we saw certain artists actually saying, “Use my voice, generate it.” It’s like, do it.

Jasper: You’re talking about Grimes.

Lutz: Yes.

Jasper: I think she wants to give away 50% of the royalties. So you would earn 50% if you sample her or resemble her or how you call it.

Lutz: Which is a sweet approach because I think, first of all, it’s very unclear at one point in time it’s resampling, and at one point in time, it’s just getting the ideation off a certain-

Jasper: Sure.

Lutz: … et cetera. So that’s all unclear. But overall production cost becomes lower. Overall when production cost becomes lower, let’s remember we only have two ears. We only can listen to one song at a time. It’s a zero-sum game. Meaning if everybody now starts to create more music… And by the way, Drake, he creates music like other people… he creates a lot of songs because he’s trying to occupy that space. Now, if AI makes it way easier for me, I’m in direct competition with Drake. Well, not me because I don’t have a music taste, but the person who’s creating this is in direct competition with Drake meaning the content, the price per content will go down, will be way more to be produced. And there will be way more to be heard.

I said earlier on, the future is indie. There is a second possible trend. And the second possible trend is the future will be music aggregators. Because if you have many songs to choose from, you will see essentially what happens in the media industry where suddenly everybody is creating content and everybody could consume everywhere the content. But that was then a calling for the aggregator, which after the great un-bundling, you had the great bundling going via Facebook, whatsoever. Maybe we should all invest now into companies like Spotify, Storytelling, whatsoever. By the way, I’m [inaudible]-

Jasper: I think your point is also, we only have two ears. Because if I have all this indie music and sometimes that happens to me on certain music streaming services, it’s just getting boring. So I’m coming back to my brands or artists and I just want to listen to something that I know, something familiar, something I can hear in the background. I remember, let’s call it, let’s come back to my rap music or hip hop music. Timberland was a big one because he had this certain type of music style and then he was talking with his voice… I’m not imitating that now, in the background. And that’s why you would listen to it because Timberland is part of that. And the same probably happens nowadays with Drake. And the same will probably happen also in the future because people are a bit lazy. I want to listen to nice music. I don’t want to experience new music styles. I just want to listen to what I know.

Lutz: No, that is actually an interesting one. Either it becomes the future is indie. If the future is indie, then that means that the brand is an important part. So they will be music endorsed by Drake or music like Drake. And Drake is not the person anymore. Drake is the emotional component of this music. And you see very many people complaining, “Oh yes, now we have AI. That means that we are missing out the emotion.” No, there is still the human who kind of says, “I want a certain thing,” like with image generation, “I want a chicken made out of fried chicken and in the sunset,” that is an idea which I put down.

Jasper: I think it’s also art at the end of the day. I want to relate to the picture, I want to relate to the story. And if I come to music, I also want it to relate to some people, at least to the artist. The people who have been to a concert… I love concerts, live concerts, it’s a total different atmosphere. And if this is AI-created music and you put an avatar on the screen dancing in front of me, it just doesn’t feel right. Maybe that changes in 50 years for my children. My children are already born, so maybe it’s more 20 years. But it’s not just brand. That would be my interpretation for other trends. It could be indie music, but somebody still has to perform. I want to relate to some person I’m listening to. Maybe I even want to read about them on newspaper or follow them on TikTok. I can’t follow a ghostwriter on TikTok right now. I can probably, but it’s not maybe interesting to follow him or her.

Lutz: Yeah. But again then, okay, maybe the authenticity of this is the important part, but it could be that we create a virtual Drake. You have already Instagram followers that are completely virtual and there’s a lot of beauty to it. If you build up a person and that person has a certain personality and people follow that personality and then follow the brand, follow the idea that this person doesn’t exist in reality might not be so important anymore.

Jasper: Yeah.

But the best chess-playing teams are not human and they’re not AI. They’re the combination of a human with a computer.

Lutz: That’s a brand part, the indie part. There’s obviously the other part which we saw like the Swiss Rock. There is a Swiss music station which is testing completely automated music generation. And if you listen to Amazon Music, then you will see that Amazon Music is trying to push a lot of plain not branded songs, because it reduces their cost, into your music stream. And I think there is a whole other area which is this aggregation area. So indie versus aggregation, both are these two areas which will be enabled because AI is reducing our barrier. But very important, AI is not taking over. It is the human together with the AI.

And one example I want to bring here is actually chess. At some point in time, Kasparov lost against the computer and Kasparov was the last person who had at least a draw between him and the computer. From that time on, nobody else will win against the computer. But the best chess-playing teams are not human and they’re not AI. They’re the combination of a human with a computer. These are the best ones. And the same thing with music. Well, as we said earlier on, it will be cross-entropy. It will be an intellectual sparring partner. It will be bringing things together in a nice mix, which is the future.

Jasper: This is a creative podcast. I like how you manage to combine a creative topic with chess, but I don’t play chess. I think to cover the…

Jasper: But I don’t play chess. So I think to cover the last bit of it, because we’re running a bit out of time is, I guess the copywriting discussion. And it’s very early, so we should only take a look. But everybody who’s now in this creative space might be a bit worried about copyright infringement. Getty Images sued Stability AI because they allegedly copied 12 million images to train their AI model. That’s obviously a big one and could happen with music as well. And it happens all the time. However, as we just alluded on, I’m getting inspired by other styles. So that’s not copyright infringement per se. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Lutz: Yeah, I had to chuckle a little bit lately as an end [inaudible]. What we always do is before we go and sit here and chat, we obviously brief ourselves. So we read articles. We are trying to get an overview. And if you look at the briefing overview, you see a lot of news outlets talking about, “Oh, copyright infringement, this is bad. What are all the musicians doing? They need to make days end and they need to make money. Are we going to support them?” And I scratch my head and kind of think isn’t if the future is indie, meaning the market becomes bigger?

Jasper: And I agree totally, because if you think about it, who are we protecting here? Are we protecting the rich musicians who have all the power for the lawyers and then start suing all the small indie ones? Or are we protecting the small indie ones who get copied by the large ones? I think, yeah, it feels more like for the first one, the big ones, and if the world is getting more indie, it’s might be even more just because everybody’s able to create music.

Lutz: It’s actually a funny thing. I think the music industry hasn’t learned a thing. They are reacting as they’re reacted at the sampling time. This is kind of close down, tell Spotify to take all the songs down, patch their muscle. I would say Spotify and Deezer would be very highly recommended. So focus on the indie part because that means the aggregation play they do is actually the value they’re creating for the market. And the other thing, which I think you will see is, and we are seeing this for the whole AI discussion over and over, at the moment, the winner will be us the consumer, because we get more choice, we get more opportunities to listen to interesting songs. So the whole copyright discussion, yeah, Getty Images sued. It’s funny because essentially they’re sued because of the Getty Image logo, which-

Jasper: That was found. Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. No, but I think, yeah, looking at it, I a hundred percent agree with you. And that’s what we all already discussed with our predictions that will be more open models, everybody using this, more innovation happening thanks to AI because we’re augmenting human creativity, human output. So we see now the same happening in music. Hopefully we have another episode also on video content creation. Currently, Runway is doing a great job there from the US side, but doesn’t look like we should be afraid that this whole AI creative music will lead to more boring music in the future.

Lutz: Let me add one more to the video. I posted on my LinkedIn profile, one marketing video, which was all AI created. It’s actually super bad. It’s a very bad video. The point is it’s completely created by AI, which makes it so appealing to talk about this. Video creation is still difficult. You can create an image, but if you want to recreate this image because it is AI, the image will look different. So putting the images into a video stream is yet a technical challenge, which will get solved pretty soon. We will see that the world will become more indie.

You do not need Disney. I’m sorry, they just lost so many users on their Disney Plus subscription. But you will see that this will become more complicated because instead of owning Marvel or creating yet another Star Wars movie, people can now … All the fans of Star Wars can easily, and they’re doing this already online, easily create their own movies. If you own the Marvel comics, if you have a Marvel comic, you scan it in and you kind of say, “Create a movie out of this with real people.” And you don’t need highly paid actress anymore because the computer can create it.

Jasper: And I think that’s the interesting part of it, because then the human touch comes with the story, the tension, the plot changes, all these kind of things. And AI still cannot do it. But then the human can create and iterate all on this and put the human touch in, which makes things exciting. And by the way, I’m still a Disney subscriber because I love Marvel.

Lutz: I love Marvel as well, don’t get me wrong, and I really love them and The Mandalorian, but hey, it was it so innovative? No.

Jasper: No.

Lutz: The computer could have created this as well, but I think-

Jasper: No, but maybe not the story. I would disagree there.

Lutz: Actually, this is a good one. Okay. The computer can generate not only one story, it can create a thousand different stories.

Jasper: That’s true. Yeah.

Lutz: The question is-

Jasper: Then I can test it.

Lutz: … the agency of US as a human to say that is this storyline, which I believe sparks the highest emotional reaction, or is what I want to say at the moment. Meaning when you … And this is the same for music, for writing, for imagery. If I say I want the chicken made out of fried chicken, I get from mid journey four images. If I do stable diffusion, I tell them how many images I want to get, whatever, I need to make a decision of what is the right level. Think about our graphics for our podcast. You didn’t say, “I want a logo for the podcast and it came.” No, we had an exchange about it. You said like, “This logo, this logo, this logo, or this logo.”

Jasper: And I just felt like I’m back to when I started my own company where crowdsourcing was a trend. Now with all this AI creating output for humans and users. But we need still the human feedback. So we come back to our feedback loop. Maybe a nice business model idea would be that I create a platform of all different users out there and I just show products, stories, images generated by AI to get some user feedback so then I can throw them into the market with a bit more security that they’re actually working. So AI is actually creating something that where we need humans again at a huge scale. Maybe that’s the future job. It’s not prompt engineer, it’s AI feedback, engineer user.

Lutz: Well, I mean, yes. And it’s again, AI will supercharge us human. I’m very positive about this. The tricky part which we haven’t really addressed and that we should probably address at some point in time is how do we re-skill all people who are getting not supercharged or all [inaudible]-

Jasper: We do that in another podcast.

Lutz: Yes. So great seeing you, Jasper.

Jasper: Likewise. Thank you very much, Lutz.